Folk Year 2

[Nullkigan]

Though it's a tough criticism to swallow, comrade Admiral Nullkigan's observation that there isn't much of a reason to check the Folk forum regularly is probably fair - at least for those ARPS comrades who are mostly interested in dropping by for the Sunday Folk session. Those same comrades are very welcome to participate more fully in the Folk forum, but perhaps for now the best thing is for a few comrades with access to both forums to volunteer to act as cross-posters for anything particularly important?

In the interest of fairness, the RPS thread doesn't have much life in it either. It's mostly screenshots, AARs and Folk-related crossposts

[Tigershark]

1. I think keep it like it is. No need to open it up. Particularly since some of us have shared personal photos and such with trusted friends in the community.

2. I think we can still go the addon path without opening the door. ACRE is pitched solely at solving an issue (comms) and brings a higher level of immersion than ACE brings IMO. I think we can pitch some selected addons that help make gameplay easier and more enjoyable (STHUD, ACRE) without going down the realism path. Just for the record, ACRE is pretty solid and we have been using for months at Tier1. It rarely crashes and is nowhere near as complicated as shown in their initial concept videos.

Just a couple of things it can bring.
- Dead people automatically moved to a dead channel. In fact, there are no needs for TS3 channels at all as your regular TS3 PTT key works as a in game VON key (Direct VON) and the CAPS LOCK key acts as the squad radio key.
- You do not need to add extra radios (only long range radios). ACRE will replace the std radio in your gear with a std. ACRE squad radio with an 500-800m range.
- Terrain effects radio comms which brings a very interesting element to missions and commanding at squad and FT level.
- The radio transmission can be moved to right ear or left ear in headset. Helps with still hearing whats going on around you.
- It doesn't update so much anymore and should remain fairly stable only updating as TS3 client changes.

I used to be it's greatest critic but when I tried it recently with Tier1 I believe it really brings a lot to the game and to unit cohesion and teamwork.

3. I would strongly like to test ACRE. But I also if it is perceived as too complex. Sounds like I am alone here for the moment after reading everyone else's comments.

4. I have no real opinion either way other than I also value our RPS comrades and hope they continue to participate in our sessions. It has been a pleasure playing with them and we fit nicely, which coincidentally is what Fer heard the other night as he visited his favourite "bar".

[wolfenswan]

As said before: big thanks to Fer and everyone involved in FOLK for being generally kickass and to Null for dealing with the 9 hells of server administration.

1. Keep it closed. This is one treehouse away from being the awesome secret club I never had. Also: Fight Club, Illuminati, Freemasons etc.
A steady trickle of new people is easier to handle and adjust to the FOLK way than a sudden rise in numbers.

2. I'd welcome if FOLK would open up to a few mods (primarily useful ones like stmovement, noblur and maybe ivd, secondarily atmosphere stuff like JSRS, blastcore, better tracers etc.) but am not too excited about fancy-pants stuff like ACRE or ACE. Mostly because it's new and unfamiliar and those things scare me. But Tigershark has a point and I wouldn't mind trying if there's a majority that want's to see it introduced. As far as mission-compatibility is concerned, we could consider a few guidelines for "designated" ACRE-missions and keep the bulk ACRE-free.

3. I'm with Null here but as said wouldn't mind testing ACRE. But we need to get rid of VON as for some people it's either broken or too quiet most of the time.

4. As we're growing in numbers and have quite a few regulars on the A2 Free server too, we really might consider creating a merged ARPS/FOLK forum with read- and members-only subsections. It might be a far fetch but considering we are one of the biggest RPS-related gaming clubs we could inquire for our own rps-forums-subsection?

This! Again, it might be good if those comrades with access to the Folk Skype chat make a point of shouting out when some ad hoc is happening (and, vice versa, more Folk comrades loiter in the RPS Steam chat). Thanks for reminding us, comrade Bodge. Also, good of you to hint at how handsome I am. That was what you were hinting at, right?

I don't know why ARPS doesn't have it's own steam group (does it?) but it could be useful for that stuff. I'm not too fond of Skype personally and would prefer to avoid having another beeping and blinking nuisance running in the background.

[Xiathorn]

Hi, I'm comrade Xiathorn and I TL;DR'd this post
But if I had read it..

1) I have no problem with having a public element. It's worked very well in the past for some groups I play with - although they were in a very different niche of the gaming market. I do feel that we ought to restrict the majority of the information to private forums, however. It just makes things easier - not all of us like having our information easily displayed to whoever googles your name (hint : Giving a co-worker your Skype name could result in unfun.)

2) I like the system as it is. I have used ACRE once, and it's actually pretty easy - BUT it still requires some setup, and I like to avoid that as much as possible for folk. That said, I'm pretty open to this idea. ACE2 is probably not a good idea - same goes with extra islands, UNLESS we were EXTREMELY careful about what we required from people, and made it EXTREMELY easy to access. If you can click a button and be good to go in 5-10 minutes, OK. 6 hours? No. A good benchmark for this would be - someone can join the forums with CO installed only, and be able to be playing in 30 minutes or so - the length of your average mission.

3) As someone very experienced with Channel Commander as a comms solution, I can say without hesitation that it is not needed here. We simply do not field enough players to justify it. It does add extra headache for the element leaders - and while that's something that I personally relish, as I like being mentally engaged on multiple fronts (and anybody who has had 'that friend' will be very experienced in 'tuning-out' white noise), I feel that it's probably prohibitive for people who are just stepping into command roles. We tend to have a slight issue when it comes to leaders at the moment - I tend to see the same few names taking roles. I'll be doing it myself next session - wanted a 'grace' period to test my connection & stability first. If we want to have more people stepping up to lead, we want to make it as accessible as possible. Channel commander doesn't do this - IMO, it's a necessary evil when you've got a large number of players, and not intrinsically helpful.

4) I have no feelings on this subject whatsoever. If it doesn't work at the moment, curses. If it does, great. I don't tend to have much time to check forums regularly because I'm too busy drinking or chasing girls. Or maybe I'm at work. Who knows?

5) Headspace likes flying. So do I. A-10 terrifies me, and frankly I don't really care about shooting stuff on the ground. If someone wants to do IL-2 or Cliffs of Dover, I'm in like Flynn.

May have more to add later. I need to go set something on fire, all this typing is making me nervous.

But of course, I never read it, so I didn't go and set anything on fire. The police are lying to you.

[mort]

I don't think we necessarily need to go completely 'public' with the server as we seem to be getting a good level of participation at the Sunday sessions but I don't have any objection to it either as new 'blood' (for want of a better word) is generally a good thing as shown by the association with ARPS.

I would not be in favour of going down the mods and ACRE route as I only really have time for a Sunday gaming session and I don't want to do too much fiddling around with addons and comms (but again I would be happy to go with the majority on these issues).

Lastly, thanks to all our fraternal mission makers and comrade commanders in game

[Tigershark]

Just to be clear.
ACRE == fiddling with add ons
ACRE != fiddling with comms....in fact it greatly simplifies them. More than CC. More than TS3 mixed with VON key. Channels virtually cease to exist which is pretty awesome (including dead channel btw)


But yes....it takes some initial fiddling to setup.

[ShowMeTheMonkey]

Just say I'm having great fun playing with FOLK as I'm a huge fan of playing tactically, but not in a milsim way. However I don't think I've really proved myself to either the ARPS or Folk group so take my opinions with a pinch of salt, as I may have no idea what I'm talking about!

1. I'm happy for new players to join as I'm one of them! However I like seeing a community develop in a "natural" way (As being a former member of BF2s.com showed me). In this way we get people who are interested and curious and what to play the game with others. This is as close to how I started, seeing the Steam event marker. However I would only play when I saw this marker as I was being "invited". Eventually I just started joining without feeling unwanted (which by the way I have NEVER felt with either ARPS or Folk, it was just my own anxiety problems!).

2. I only really use addons for useful things: okt_noblur, ST_Hub, ST_Movement and a sound mod (I really don't like the vanilla sounds, urrrrgh the AK sounds baaaaaad). You'll have to advise about the workload on allowing client side mods.

3. Now this is where I have less experience, and probably talking rubbish:
- At the moment I don't really like the TS3 for command and in-game VON for squad. It just sounds horrible, not a comment on the utility of it, just I don't like the sound quality.
- I really like the mumble channels for command/pilots/squad. It didn't take me long to work out a system of a few whisper keys, so now I can talk to individual squads, pilots, command. This keeps out most chatter and brings a more "targeted" feel to the coms. So I would wholeheartedly endorse a mumble based com network. Though if there are reasons why this cannot be the case then I may have missed them, so feel free to rubbish mumble! (Oh, I really like the sound quality too).....
- In regards to ACRE all I can go on is the advertising, which I admit sounds pretty interesting! So I would be up to give it a few sample missions to see if we can get the hang of it. However I don't know how much work that is serverside, so I could be asking quite a lot!

4. I'm not really sure about this, though I definitely see Nulkigans point of view.

[Draakon]

Might as well post my 2 cents in here.

1. No opinion about this issue. Although my motto is "The more, the merrier".

2. Now, its seems a lot of people are avoiding addons due to non-existing difficulties they bring. I can assure you, addons are as easy as a pie. You download it, you make a addon folder (if none is provided inside the archive file), extract the contents off the archive inside and you are all set. You can actually use the ingame Expansion (I believe) to activate your addons. Or, theres always a bunch of dedicated launchers out there that only require few mouse clicks to set up the launch properties. Before I had to do complete reinstall of my Arma 2, I had about 20 GB worth of content installed in my computer, about 80% was for local testing. Either way, it took me like 1 minute to set up a profile for certain mods (for example, a WW2 only modded game or a heavy emphasis on US content only). And when it comes to updateing already existing mods, that is even as easy as a pie. Its mostly just replace olds files and VOILA!
With ACE2, you also have 2 versions available to download. Stable and Ongoing development. Stable is 1 time download only and play until a next stable version is released. Ongoing development requires a 3rd party addon manager/downloader app (Six Updater or Yoma AddonSync) which are very easy to use and the download speeds are fast. Just launch the app, let it resync between your computer and the server then hit the glorious Update button and wait. ITS THAT EASY!

But there is a big but in here about 1 addon: ACE2. Couple of people already have stated that they dislike ACE2 for whatever reasons. I for one, don't and like the extra content it has brought us. So, this is something that might need to be skipped for now, unless a unified decision has been reached even about addon usage. But in the mean time, using other islands is a good refreshing experience as well, which something like FOLK might need. I for one, when not playing with FOLK or ARPS am playing in heavily modded servers sometimes to have a variety between my games.

3. I find the current FOLK comms system to be bad. Squad leaders and squad memebers talking over each other so much that I can't even think my own toughs. Indeed, ACER will be a good choice, but for now a great non-addon-needed way is to split all squad members into their own separate channels and have SQL use CC or whisper.

4. No comment.

[fer]

2. Now, its seems a lot of people are avoiding addons due to non-existing difficulties they bring. I can assure you, addons are as easy as a pie.

You're right that at lot has been done in the field of automatic synchronisation software and launchers, but in the context of the Folk sessions - as opposed to a normal ArmA group - what constitutes an acceptable amount of set-up work is quite different. After years in a really high-commitment (ACE2-using) group like ShackTac, I (and others here) are very familiar with the benefits of a full addons approach ... however, the 'contract' that exists between members and organised groups like that is fundamentally different from the one between guests and the Folk sessions.

Today, pretty much the only thing we ask a guest to do is have the latest versions of Combined Operations (non-beta) and TS3 installed. Beyond that, we like people to be registered on the Folk forum, but that's relaxed for ARPS comrades. Even if you have a Fok forum account, I've given up posting important things there and expecting guests to check them pre-session - when critical news items arise I send out emails to everyone and cross-post in the RPS forum. The result is that if you come along to a Folk session, it's 99% certain that you'll be able to play. It's a 'contract' that's very light on the guest's side, and whilst it's by no means low-effort for me, it's just about manageable. This is low friction, the concept that sits at the heart of the Folk sessions. I've always felt that it's an approach that makes Folk sessions something rare in the ArmAverse - tactical play that's easy to join, and with none of the dress-up or mil-sim usually associated with playing experiences that aim to be reasonably co-ordinated in-game.

Going down an addons route would change things. For the guest there would be several implications: initially it would involve downloading and setting up necessary synchronisation software (and launcher) and updating to match the server; thereafter the guest would need to be proactive - checking for updates well in advance of the session, to avoid that nightmare of turning up to find one has to download a slew of files just to play. For people on slow connections (and I'm one) that can effectively kill your chances of playing that evening. Suddenly, the 'contract' requires more commitment from the guest. You might think it's not a massive difference in terms of effort, but I'd ask you to spare a thought for those guests who juggle playing with young families and high pressure jobs - this shift can be the tipping point for such people, placing the sessions just out of reach. I would also argue that this change would make the Folk sessions more like any number of groups in the ArmAverse.

The addons approach would not be all roses on the hosts' side either, because they'll be obliged to keep the server addons refreshed and publicise updates. Between writing missions, running the sessions each Sunday, and trying to turn up to ARPS mid-week sessions when I can, I simply don't have time to handle an addons agenda. Comrade Tigershark already does a great deal for Folk (including writing missions), but he must balance that with duties at Tier 1; and comrade Admiral Nullkigan has the weight of ARPS/Folk servers on his shoulders already. We would need to see a step-change in the amount of available host effort, and experience suggests that's unrealistic.

I don't want to appear hostile about this, or bitter about the workload associated with making the Folk sessions happen - I signed up for this - and, comrade Draakon, I don't disagree with you about the joys a really good quality mod like ACE2 brings to the game. However, I do want to draw your attention to the fragile amount of effort that's available on the part of guest and host alike in the Folk universe. Low friction is probably Folk's greatest strength and weakness.

Oh God, what an essay :/

... for now a great non-addon-needed way is to split all squad members into their own separate channels and have SQL use CC or whisper.

For now, I'm going to ask people to use CC, but only on missions that merit it. I'll try and make a post (and perhaps an email alert) about that soon.

[Draakon]

Going down an addons route would change things. For the guest there would be several implications: initially it would involve downloading and setting up necessary synchronisation software (and launcher) and updating to match the server; thereafter the guest would need to be proactive - checking for updates well in advance of the session, to avoid that nightmare of turning up to find one has to download a slew of files just to play. For people on slow connections (and I'm one) that can effectively kill your chances of playing that evening. Suddenly, the 'contract' requires more commitment from the guest. You might think it's not a massive difference in terms of effort, but I'd ask you to spare a thought for those guests who juggle playing with young families and high pressure jobs - this shift can be the tipping point for such people, placing the sessions just out of reach. I would also argue that this change would make the Folk sessions more like any number of groups in the ArmAverse.

Now, this is partially true for ACE2, due to the fact it's the only largest and most popular mod (don't quote me on this though), but a lot of people are forgetting a common thing about most Arma 2 mods: There are Stable versions released by the mod makers. That is, download once, install it and continue playing until a new version comes out (not very often for Stable versions) or server decides to update.

Also, some good communities I know for example give at least a minimum of week to warn their players about upcoming changes to the server. That is enough time for a player to update their installation and be able to play. If during the this period a player fails to do that, well, generally its their own fault. Most complaints about server being down or incoming updates to the server and thus certain players not being able to play can be backtracked to a fact that they themselves don't keep up to date with latest news about the server.

The addons approach would not be all roses on the hosts' side either, because they'll be obliged to keep the server addons refreshed and publicise updates. Between writing missions, running the sessions each Sunday, and trying to turn up to ARPS mid-week sessions when I can, I simply don't have time to handle an addons agenda. Comrade Tigershark already does a great deal for Folk (including writing missions), but he must balance that with duties at Tier 1; and comrade Admiral Nullkigan has the weight of ARPS/Folk servers on his shoulders already. We would need to see a step-change in the amount of available host effort, and experience suggests that's unrealistic.

Another misconception a lot of people have is that whenever a new version of something is released, they must instantly update. I however, don't see such a written rule or spoke rule somewhere. For example, 2 years back, I was part of a very large LAN group (just taking part). One of the popular games we played was a old classic FPS called "Soldier of Fortune 2". We were playing mostly with an addon called "ROCMod" that was well developed and changes were almost made daily. However, the LAN admins decided do not update the server to the latest version, but watched and learned from other communities how the upgrade went, what changed besides things mentioned in a chanelog and etc. After a while, a 2 week warning was given in advance about an update. Everything went very smoothly, no problems were encountered server and admin side, everyone had enough time to solve their problems if they had one and the gaming went on.

I don't want to appear hostile about this, or bitter about the workload associated with making the Folk sessions happen - I signed up for this - and, comrade Draakon, I don't disagree with you about the joys a really good quality mod like ACE2 brings to the game. However, I do want to draw your attention to the fragile amount of effort that's available on the part of guest and host alike in the Folk universe. Low friction is probably Folk's greatest strength and weakness.

Well, I am greatly sorry if I appeared in any way hostile on the stance with FOLK usage of addons. To be honest, I couldn't care less what addons FOLK use. If I want to play with a certain addon, I would go less. Don't get me wrong, I have so far loved every minute of FOLK. My previous post (as is this) was meant as helpful insight on the modding side of Arma 2 (or any other game for that matter).