Republic of Folk

What? Hey, haven't we already had this conversation?
Yes ... yes we have. A long time ago, when folk was even younger than it is now, the then guests agreed we would enable crosshairs on the server.

So why are you raising this issue again?
With a bit of luck, we'll once again be doing a joint session with our friends at MARSOC. As before, the plan is for the session to use the folk server, and only vanilla copies of the game.

Okay, so what has this got to do with crosshairs?
MARSOC plays ArmA2 using major addons like ACE2, but for joint sessions their members agree to use vanilla - I hope you'll all agree that's a big compromise on their part. However, there is an aspect of MARSOC's regular set-up that we could support in our vanilla approach: MARSOC doesn't use crosshairs, and its admins have asked if we could disable the feature during the next joint session.

Er, okay. So crosshairs will be disabled in the next joint session with MARSOC.
Right.

Why does this merit its own thread?
Because I'd like to ask how guests feel about disabling the crosshairs in advance, so that we can get some practice without them. Hence this thread, and the voting options. Please share your thoughts and, of course, vote.

I'm a new guy so my vote doesn't really count. But crosshairs make hip shot firing way too easy. More importantly, it's the game style you guys demonstrated on Sunday. You all appear to appreciate and pursue a realistic tactical style of play. Just my opinion.

Mega wrote:I'm a new guy so my vote doesn't really count.

Mega, I'm afraid that once you're here, you're here. So all opinions count from the outset

Mega wrote:More importantly, it's the game style you guys demonstrated on Sunday. You all appear to appreciate and pursue a realistic tactical style of play. Just my opinion.

There's always going to be a tricky balance in Folk sessions: applying just enough organisation and tactical elements to make it worthwhile playing ArmA2 (instead of, for example, a slicker military FPS like BF2) - whilst not slipping into the cult-of-realism that can drain a lot of the fun from being a simple farmer with an AK.

Personally, I'm of the school that the sensory deprivation of looking at the world through a box (your monitor) excuses plenty of in-game aides that compensate for lowered situational awareness. So the crosshair isn't completely terrible in my book. Moreover, I think I speak for most here when I say that "because it's more for realz!" will never - by itself - be a compelling argument for anything at Folk.

On this particular issue, my outlook is practical: MARSOC is ditching ACE2 when it plays on our server, so our concession not to use crosshairs in a joint session is fair (and therefore unlikely to change). Given that we'll have to live without crosshairs in that session, I'd rather get a little practice in beforehand. So I'm voting for the middle option. How about you?

I've never had crosshairs turned off, but I don't use them when shooting - so I'm not too bothered either way. I think we should at least try without crosshairs at the next session to see how it works out. I voted for the middle option.

I definitely agree with turning them off for when we play with MARSOC

Well remember the AI sure as hell use Super Duper Crosshairs on there retina. For the way they sure shoot me with precision. Yeah maybe against Human players no crosshairs but not those AI super shooters...

If crosshairs are disabled for the next Marsoc session you can count me out.

End of

(crosshairs ingame are an aid to situational awareness to make up for the crap visuals compared to RL. i dont understand why MARSOC dont get this. do they want us to start bulling boots and saluting as well?

mort wrote:(crosshairs ingame are an aid to situational awareness to make up for the crap visuals compared to RL. i dont understand why MARSOC dont get this.

They don't "get" it for the exact same reason that you don't "get" why anyone would want to disable them. Each option has very unique merits for game-play and it's not right or wrong either way.

I don't hold a strong opinion either way. Crosshairs are just crosshairs. In OFP/ArmA I would explicitly want them on because they were necessary for some scripts, but I don't know if that's still a concern with A2? If MARSOC accepts them, then perhaps it'd be good to stick with what we're used to and leave them on. If they request disabled crosshairs to play, then let's just man up and do it... it's not like they're asking us to hold off the T-72's with our tractors and pitchforks while they retreat. If you get yourself in-game without the crosshairs, you'll be used to it after one firefight.

I'd prefer if we could all remain non-pessimistic and realize the awesome fun that a joint session presents - crosshairs or no crosshairs!

theG57 wrote:Well remember the AI sure as hell use Super Duper Crosshairs on there retina. For the way they sure shoot me with precision. Yeah maybe against Human players no crosshairs but not those AI super shooters...

Bear in mind that versus the AI we usually all end up with K:D ratios of 2 to 20 depending on the player/mission... from this perspective, the AI is actually apparently much, much worse at aiming than us (not that I'm suggesting it's a bad balance; I like killing things too. Lots of things. )

if theres no crosshairs its not 'awesome fun' for me its a complete waste of my time.
I use trackir and play on a notebook which make it essential to have crosshairs in addition to the reasons stated above.

Comrades! As usual, my poorly-framed questions have created fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). I'd apologise, but that would be a sign of weakness. Instead, I shall concoct a cover-story that lays the blame at the feet of an unloved minority (hello: Xiathorn), and have them hounded out of folk or thrown in a cyber gulag. Before this thread continues too far, please allow me to take a few steps back and provide a bit of context for this discussion:

We've had 3 good joint sessions with our friends from MARSOC, but in all those instances we've asked them to accept our set-up completely unaltered: vanilla combined operations, with absolutely no mods allowed. For those of you who play with ACE2 elsewhere, which is the baseline for MARSOC's own suite of addons, you'll appreciate what a major change reverting to vanilla represents.

This time around, the admins at MARSOC asked for some concessions:

1. That we drop the crosshairs, which MARSOC does not use in its own sessions.
2. That we use MARSOC's approach to TS3 in big coops.
3. That we allow players to connect with the STHUD (an addon that increases situational awareness).

Request #2 is something we've already done in an unofficial way, since those of us who wanted to take leadership slots during the combined event with MARSOC and LDDK became familiar with the MARSOC whisper-lists. Crucially, it isn't something you have to worry about if you just want to take sub-FTL slots and concentrate on shooting people.

Request #3 is, sadly, something we haven't been able to deliver for technical reasons (yet). STHUD requires an element of Community Base Addons (@CBA), which conflicts too strongly with folk's vanilla setup. There may be a way to allow this in an optional way in the future, but it's now very unlikely to happen in time for the next joint session with MARSOC, which is on Sunday 13 February, 2011.

Request #1is, I appreciate, something of an emotive issue for some. So, to be clear: this is something MARSOC has asked us to do in the spirit of compromise for the joint session. That's the scope of this.

Please bear in mind that the whole point of folk is: low friction gaming. Given that we haven't had any requests from within folk to drop crosshairs in the last few months, I think it's very unlikely that we will do anything other than revert to enabling crosshairs as soon as the joint session is over. In that context, my suggested third voting option was perhaps ill-judged, and for that I am sorry Xiathorn will be executed.

I fail to see how playing vanilla Arma is such a stretch for marsoc. We already made a major compromise by agreeing to use their ludicrously over complicated comms setup and disabling crosshairs as well is completely retarded