Feedback: Operation Shockwave

[fer]

Certainly a mission with huge potential. However, I think there are various aspects which merit some further tweaking and testing. Here are some suggestions from me:

1. In-mission briefing
The powerpoint deck is lovely, but it's asking a lot of people to alt-tab into a separate application (which they might also have to download), just to refer to the briefing. Incorporating all the pertinent data into the briefing file and map would be really helpful for commanders at all levels.

2. Eliminate 'make-work' pre-mission tasks
Giving the insurgents the co-ordinates for the caches over TS, and then asking them to mark location on the map, doesn't really serve a purpose other than to extend the time before we can green-up. Either pre-mark the map, or, if you want to add an element of uncertainty, perhaps borrow from Cacheola and mark small search areas for each.

3. Reflect the fact that characters (and therefore knowledge) exist before the mission starts
As a cell leader (and overall leader), it was frustrating to have no knowledge at all about what was likely to be in each cache. It meant that any plans made prior to opening the crates (and even target selection for each cell) were subject to enormous change when the weapons were found. In real life, I strongly doubt that insurgents would put any less planning into an operation than BLUFOR troops: even if we had to go to a location to arm ourselves, we would know what to expect in each cache and plan accordingly.

4. Allow weapons to be holstered
Obviously tricky with anything larger than a pistol or carbine, but the fact that we couldn't holster or hide small arms meant that once armed, there was no option but to fight. Clearly, we could have moved gear around in cars, but human vehicle movement is easy to spot.

5. Penalise shooting unarmed insurgents
My killer shot me at point blank range when I was unarmed, and standing up. It wasn't a stray shot, it was an execution. Whilst I certainly wouldn't want to end the mission on such an event (because in firefights anything can happen), we need to have a mechanism that forces BLUFOR troops to think twice before pulling the trigger in an AO full of civilians. One approach might be to strip such a soldier of his weapon for the rest of the mission? I don't know.

6. Restrict support weapons
FFARs and similar heavy area effect weapons (relative to infantry combat) probably have no place in an AO full of civilians. Of course, one could arm the insurgents with Stingers, but that - for me - means getting away from the low-tech / infiltration aims of the mission concept. Better to make BLUFOR's airbourne platforms focus on observation / co-ordination, guiding in ground forces for the kill.

7. Clarify target actions
TBH, I wasn't quite sure what we had to do at the Mosque. Did we have to massacre everyone inside it? Or blow it up? If the latter, how? It's a huge structure! Might be best to look at ways in which the targets can be made more focused.

8. Reduce number of targets (perhaps dynamically)
With 28 people on the server, we were spread very thin. Having played in similar missions with ShackTac, I know that even with playercounts of 50+ it can be a challenge to avoid situations in which players see very little action. We might want to look into ways of scaling back the mission objectives to reflect the number of players available in the session.

I know others will have ideas and suggestions too, but I hope these help. Let's get some agreement on changes, then see how we can help you out with them, Sonsalt. Looking forward to hearing from you!

[generalcarver]

2. Eliminate 'make-work' pre-mission tasks
Giving the insurgents the co-ordinates for the caches over TS, and then asking them to mark location on the map, doesn't really serve a purpose other than to extend the time before we can green-up. Either pre-mark the map, or, if you want to add an element of uncertainty, perhaps borrow from Cacheola and mark small search areas for each.

You could also easily randomize the crate placement by simply grouping the crate with several "empty" markers placed around the map in the mission editor. That's a in editor quick easy way of randomizing an object's starting position.

3. Reflect the fact that characters (and therefore knowledge) exist before the mission starts
As a cell leader (and overall leader), it was frustrating to have no knowledge at all about what was likely to be in each cache. It meant that any plans made prior to opening the crates (and even target selection for each cell) were subject to enormous change when the weapons were found. In real life, I strongly doubt that insurgents would put any less planning into an operation than BLUFOR troops: even if we had to go to a location to arm ourselves, we would know what to expect in each cache and plan accordingly.

Well, I don't know. If you want the mission to be replayable, heck, I'd even consider randomizing the contents to some degree.

4. Allow weapons to be holstered
Obviously tricky with anything larger than a pistol or carbine, but the fact that we couldn't holster or hide small arms meant that once armed, there was no option but to fight. Clearly, we could have moved gear around in cars, but human vehicle movement is easy to spot.

5. Penalise shooting unarmed insurgents
My killer shot me at point blank range when I was unarmed, and standing up. It wasn't a stray shot, it was an execution. Whilst I certainly wouldn't want to end the mission on such an event (because in firefights anything can happen), we need to have a mechanism that forces BLUFOR troops to think twice before pulling the trigger in an AO full of civilians. One approach might be to strip such a soldier of his weapon for the rest of the mission? I don't know.

6. Restrict support weapons
FFARs and similar heavy area effect weapons (relative to infantry combat) probably have no place in an AO full of civilians. Of course, one could arm the insurgents with Stingers, but that - for me - means getting away from the low-tech / infiltration aims of the mission concept. Better to make BLUFOR's airbourne platforms focus on observation / co-ordination, guiding in ground forces for the kill.

I wouldn't go this far. I wouldn't restrict bluefor's weapons. If we get scripting in which will fail the mission if too many civs are killed.. or if Key infrastructure is destroyed, that will force the player's to use restraint.

8. Reduce number of targets (perhaps dynamically)
With 28 people on the server, we were spread very thin. Having played in similar missions with ShackTac, I know that even with playercounts of 50+ it can be a challenge to avoid situations in which players see very little action. We might want to look into ways of scaling back the mission objectives to reflect the number of players available in the session.

Yeah. Perhaps have a bundle of potential targets or tasks and the insurgents will be randomly given a few to do. That way the players can focus on them all.


My ideas..
1.

2. Scripts Needed to help player interaction and immersion.. here's my ideas.. all doable with my current skill level..

• More ambient civilians. Give Insurgent players something to "blend in" with. I'm not sure the civilian module would be very effective and it might produce more lag than its worth. So, putting a bunch of civs moving around on waypoints might be better and also some static groups of them.
• Bluefor Tracking dog script. Could "sniff" and see the contents of vehicles, crates and people's inventory (like sniffing for weapons, explosives etc.). could attack and disable legs and disarm (player looses gear on ground). Dog could locate IEDs, mines, caches and people. (probably via map markers). THIS would be a PLAYABLE unit. (animals can be played). Oh and could also "simulate" being able to ride in vehicles
• Less than lethal - use the slugs in the shotguns for bean bags, stuns players. Golden Revolver could be a taser. Can script a tazing sequence.
• Vehicle Locking Script - dynamic. if a player gets in a driver seat. he can lock vehicle when in. Or he can choose exit and lock. He will exit, lock vehicle and then this vehicle would be added to an array of locked vehicles for his SIDE. So other people on his side could unlock the vehicle.
• Arrest Script - suspect must have hands up. cop can search inventory, sieze inventory, cop can "cuff player" or uncuff. cop can arrest unit (needs unit to be cuffed). cuffed units cannot drive or gun vehicles. They cannot have any weapons. but they can be freed by friendly uncuffed units.
• Legitimate Work Script - Say what? Yep, work! Some kind of script where players could do some simple random tasks and then maybe get the in game money unit. and they could buy equipment, weapons or vehicles with it. Simple tasks. Drive this truck here. Go here, get this.. take it here. U know, tasks that get them to move about the map.. TRip up the blue for.
• Bluefor - Deployable checkpoint elements. Signs, fences etc.
  
  Ok that's it for now. i'm going to start working on these scripts for mission in general. so stay tuned. But lets get this mission working! It has so much potential to be an epically fun mission.

[Sonsalt]

Hey,

with a little help some nice scripts and a working civ module we could make this a really dynamic and intense mission for everybody.

1.The mission briefing basically tells everything and provides enough Intel for a high replay-ability.

2. The decision to hide the caches and not let you know what is in them was a balancing decision. The strength of the terrorists is to blend in amongst the civilian. Also they can get initial weapons at the generals retreat. The Weapon stashes provide additional equipment and should open up new opportunities for the terrorists to work with, like a sniper rifle to snipe the ambassador when he is on the roof or IEDs etc. If the Terrorists would get too much equipment all they would have to do is straight up fight the strike forces by luring it into an ambush. The ability to work under cover is incredibly powerful as is the possibility to choose from a variety of targets.

2. We could provide some more weapons at the beginning allowing the terrorists to prepare a bit more and to get more aggressive, the weapons and tools have to be limited and not compromise the balance of the mission.

4. Holstering weapons as well as the weapon detection script should be great improvements. I believe this is a great idea. We should definitely improve these elements and make the ability for terrorists to blend in and use the civilian cover more potent. Also we need to make sure that the proper civ Module works next time we try this mission.

5. Agreed. One should not be allowed to shoot at unarmed civilians. This should only be the choice of last resort. A script that counts civilian deaths and results in a mission failure once a certain number has been hit should solve this. But one should not forget the terrorists are legitimate targets. The detection is the hard part. It should not be required to wait until they actually shoot someone until one can react.

6. Next mission I will remove the FFEAR rounds for the Air support.

7. The Briefing actually says it all. But the in game briefing can be a bit more detailed.

8. The amount of objects is the essence of the mission, as it mostly forces the US forces to stretch out to cover it all. The Terrorists can choose to attack in force one at a time or stage attacks. With less objectives the mission would be much more static and would give the US forces a chance to just sit and wait. This is what I try to avoid.

Cheers

Sonsalt

[LiddleFeesh]

Without wishing to come across as negative, the positives first: The mission design was incredibly ambitious and taking a look at the Powerpoint slides afterwards, it was obvious that there was a good deal of work put into preparing the mission. It was an exciting initial preparation and I didn't mind taking down the co-ordinates of the caches (although this could get old fast if we replayed it).

However the negatives which Fer has outlined were pretty fatal to the mission. Our fireteam (Mort, DM and myself) were a long way from our side and isolated without any weapons. We drove towards the nearest cache (also a long way out from the action in the city) at the Factory. It took us a couple of minutes to find the boxes with the guns in. There were guns, but no ammunition. Mort couldn't even see the guns in the crates.

Mort told DM and me to go on without him, and so I did - dodging enemy fire (I had an empty AK) and by sheer luck (and DM's earlier instruction), managed to acquire a few AK magazines from the back of a truck. I shot an AI EI and called Mort over. I dropped my AK for him but Mort couldn't pick it up and when I picked it up it had no spare magazines, just 11 rounds left in the one clip still attached to the gun. Scripting bugs spoiled it thus far.

Five seconds later I was incapacitated by enemy AI EI from the factory - paratroopers from the BAF addon with their superior firepower. Mourning my bad luck, I called DM and Mort over to assist me which they did.

Ten seconds later Mort took out another enemy AI EI at point blank range and then we all exploded in a hail of high explosive rocket fire from above.

--

I personally wouldn't put any effort into fixing up the mission, it would be like applying layers of sticky-tape on a broken premise. That premise is that the OPFOR element plays as civilians who;

1. don't look like civilians (the slung rifle gives it away)
2. have to travel to unknown locations to acquire unknown armament - more than once in order to become combat effective
3. along the way have to quite literally dodge incoming fire from AI BLUFOR who can see through the disguise at 500m.
4. are unable to blend in as civilian AI as human players do not act like civilian AI (I saw MARSOC players shoot a couple of shots into the air - AI promptly goes prone/runs/cowers - and human players don't act the same way). (I note that Fer actually did a pretty darn good job of acting like a scripted AI character!)
5. can be killed with no consequences whatsoever
6. are up against a fully armed and mechanised BLUFOR force

Some of these issues can be overcome by introducing a third team, also played by the insurgents - the "civilian" team. The civilians would be neutral to AI and with the addition of a "equip pistol/IED" script they could surreptitiously attack or plant bombs. BLUFOR would need a strict penalty for killing one of these civilians who doesn't have a weapon equipped - i.e. an immediate teleport to jail. Players who aren't on the faux "civilian" team could then play the insurgent role but without going after weapon caches. These changes could improve the mission somewhat.

In conclusion, the balance issues seem insurmountable and therefore I recommend renaming the mission to "Fish in a barrel" and playing something else.

In an earlier thread I did strongly suggest taking a spin on the typical BLUFOR vs insurgent spin and would like to see MARSOC protecting defended positions (i.e. a moving convoy, an outpost or a small compound 'defend the base') with FOLK insurgents attacking.

[LiddleFeesh]

The strength of the terrorists is to blend in amongst the civilian. Also they can get initial weapons at the generals retreat. The Weapon stashes provide additional equipment and should open up new opportunities for the terrorists to work with, like a sniper rifle to snipe the ambassador when he is on the roof or IEDs etc. If the Terrorists would get too much equipment all they would have to do is straight up fight the strike forces by luring it into an ambush. The ability to work under cover is incredibly powerful as is the possibility to choose from a variety of targets.

Hi Sonsalt,

At first I was incredibly excited to try out this possibility, and I agree with what you've written above. The idea is very cool indeed (and I know of no other game nor simulation that could do something like this), but fatally flawed because the strength of the terrorists doesn't currently exist at all.

[Sonsalt]

I was just thinking some nasty techniques for the civilians could also be to just use hand grenades as they are hardly detectable.

Concerning the Civilian shooting, it would be great to have an option to interrogate and talk with civilians, in order to detect hostiles and maybe even an option to arrest.

Lets do some brainstorming.

[LiddleFeesh]

I was just thinking some nasty techniques for the civilians could also be to just use hand grenades as they are hardly detectable.

Concerning the Civilian shooting, it would be great to have an option to interrogate and talk with civilians, in order to detect hostiles and maybe even an option to arrest.

Lets do some brainstorming.

Hi Sonsalt,

I'm happy to lend my voice and ears to any ideas, but if there is a fundamental flaw to this mission it is this: "civilians" are not. The "civilian" team is basically an insurgent team wearing civilian clothes.

This needs to change so that BLUFOR cannot shoot anyone who is a non-combatant. And a combatant is one who is holding a weapon.

[generalcarver]

You have to create real reasons with consequences to force players into the rules of engagement.


So, we need players to be able to move around without getting lit up all the time. Being shot while unarmed is one way. Also, creating legitimate tasks that the terrorists can do on the map which will take them around and about. The tasks will help them in the fight by building resources and such. but while the terrorists are doing these tasks, if they are not causing trouble.. they cannot be engaged. (and scripting can be in place to provide real consequences to blue for who try and violate this) its doable. trust me.

[fer]

2. The decision to hide the caches and not let you know what is in them was a balancing decision. The strength of the terrorists is to blend in amongst the civilian. Also they can get initial weapons at the generals retreat. The Weapon stashes provide additional equipment and should open up new opportunities for the terrorists to work with, like a sniper rifle to snipe the ambassador when he is on the roof or IEDs etc. If the Terrorists would get too much equipment all they would have to do is straight up fight the strike forces by luring it into an ambush. The ability to work under cover is incredibly powerful as is the possibility to choose from a variety of targets.

Not knowing what's in the caches, and not giving insurgents powerful weapons, are two different issues. I disagree with the notion of making caches some kind of surprise because it's hard to imagine setting off to attack the infidels without at least knowing what guns you plan to use. However, if your aim is to prevent the major ambush then a better - and simpler - balancing mechanism is just to restrict the weapon types.

2. We could provide some more weapons at the beginning allowing the terrorists to prepare a bit more and to get more aggressive, the weapons and tools have to be limited and not compromise the balance of the mission.

Just having (holsterable) pistols would be awesome - not least because it means insurgents are not totally helpless for the first 5 minutes, and can defend themselves (to a point) if they unexpectedly encounter BLUFOR or AI patrols. I agree with you completely that the spirit of the mission calls for insurgents not to have anything particularly heavy.

4. Holstering weapons as well as the weapon detection script should be great improvements. I believe this is a great idea. We should definitely improve these elements and make the ability for terrorists to blend in and use the civilian cover more potent. Also we need to make sure that the proper civ Module works next time we try this mission.

Scripts for this feature exist, and don't require CBA. Let's investigate getting some and implementing.

5. Agreed. One should not be allowed to shoot at unarmed civilians. This should only be the choice of last resort. A script that counts civilian deaths and results in a mission failure once a certain number has been hit should solve this. But one should not forget the terrorists are legitimate targets. The detection is the hard part. It should not be required to wait until they actually shoot someone until one can react.

I'd go further and say that even if you know a civilian character is a player, you should not be allowed to shoot her/him unless they are armed. Even with scripts, it's almost impossible not to tell humans from AI unless you are observing them from very far away. Plus, one could have some neat situations in which BLUFOR patrols talk with humans whom they know - but cannot prove to be - insurgents. Perhaps this RoE can be extended so that insurgents must agree to being searched (via a script), or else they become a legitimate target?

6. Next mission I will remove the FFEAR rounds for the Air support.

Thanks!

7. The Briefing actually says it all. But the in game briefing can be a bit more detailed.

Thank you

8. The amount of objects is the essence of the mission, as it mostly forces the US forces to stretch out to cover it all. The Terrorists can choose to attack in force one at a time or stage attacks. With less objectives the mission would be much more static and would give the US forces a chance to just sit and wait. This is what I try to avoid.

That's a fair point, but I do think the mission merits at least some simplification. Perhaps a first step would be to remove the UN trucks and Beardface objectives, which allows us all to focus on the caches in the first part of the mission, and the six targets (of which insurgents must attack 3) in the second. It's hard to tell what will be best, frankly, without some more play-throughs.

One other thought: the approach to using VON and/or TS should probably be identical on both sides. VON is great because of the way it transmits on channels and in Direct at all time, which means patrols can give away their positions to the enemy if they are danger close.

[Sonsalt]

Not knowing what's in the caches, and not giving insurgents powerful weapons, are two different issues. I disagree with the notion of making caches some kind of surprise because it's hard to imagine setting off to attack the infidels without at least knowing what guns you plan to use. However, if your aim is to prevent the major ambush then a better - and simpler - balancing mechanism is just to restrict the weapon types.

sure why not, we can inform ppl on the stuff in the crates and just place them kinda hidden. This should give the terrorists more opportunities to prepare and choose their crates. But I will keep the give away crate. This forces the terrorists to make their move quick and also gives the Bluefor at least some chance to go offensive

Just having (holsterable) pistols would be awesome - not least because it means insurgents are not totally helpless for the first 5 minutes, and can defend themselves (to a point) if they unexpectedly encounter BLUFOR or AI patrols. I agree with you completely that the spirit of the mission calls for insurgents not to have anything particularly heavy.

Holsterable weapons are quite good but also quite effective, especially when you manage to sneak up on bluefor units. So I would say for the Teamleaders yes but not for everyone. This would overpower the terrorists.

Scripts for this feature exist, and don't require CBA. Let's investigate getting some and implementing.

Great, also check my script, this may help as well, although it only checks in inventory and not in hand which undermines the holstered weapons.

I'd go further and say that even if you know a civilian character is a player, you should not be allowed to shoot her/him unless they are armed. Even with scripts, it's almost impossible not to tell humans from AI unless you are observing them from very far away. Plus, one could have some neat situations in which BLUFOR patrols talk with humans whom they know - but cannot prove to be - insurgents. Perhaps this RoE can be extended so that insurgents must agree to being searched (via a script), or else they become a legitimate target?

I think this is the most arguable and most critical point of the whole setup. One the one hand shooting unarmed persons is an absolute no go and needs to be limited as much as possible, but on the other waiting for the terrorists to shoot will most likely bee too late. This basically reflects the reality. See London incident and other real life issues. So proof is needed and arresting should go before shooting.
Possible Solution:
Check status of civilians via Script. It should be possible to walk up to any civilian and use a command to "check for Passport" or so. This will reveal the terrorists. Once revealed they can surrender and also via script be restrained or they can try to run. At that point they become legitimate targets.

In my opinion this strikes the balance between the two intrests. If an unarmed terrorists gets shot without being detected (checked) first he counts as civilian and will add to the civilian shot statistic -> resulting in failure.

Problem: What if a terrorist just drops his weapon?
My scrip already accounts for this. If a unit takes a weapon and if that person gets detected, the set captive status will be set to false. This status will only change if the person drops the weapon and hides for a certain amount of time. The same will apply for Real players as the script changes the status towards non AI too. So The terrorist has to run drop his weapon or explosive and hide. After some minutes he will be a civilian again.

What we need though is some sort of info to the terrorist that he is now safe.

That's a fair point, but I do think the mission merits at least some simplification. Perhaps a first step would be to remove the UN trucks and Beardface objectives, which allows us all to focus on the caches in the first part of the mission, and the six targets (of which insurgents must attack 3) in the second. It's hard to tell what will be best, frankly, without some more play-throughs.

Agreed, we can delete the Trucks and maybe the Beardface stuff. This should make the mission easier. Although I was thinking, it might be a good idea to make the Beardface a real person. So to speak your leader. He is in charge of the overall operation and commands his units either from a house or on the field. If he dies the secondary objective gets true. That improves the command structure and is also easier for the terrorists to deal with.